Dish Network chairman Charlie Ergen isn’t kidding around when it comes to the high cost of programming, telling analysts Friday that its dispute with Spanish-language broadcaster is “probably permanent.”

Univision channels went dark to Dish customers on June 30,  when the two failed to reach a retransmission consent agreement. In the flurry of rhetoric from both sides since the blackout, Dish has claimed that Univision has lost half of its audience; while Univision claims it is the third most-watched network by Dish subscribers.

“The short answer is yes, this is probably an inflection point,” Ergen said on Dish’s Q2 earnings conference call. “I believe this one, personally, is probably permanent.”

Ergen was repeating what Dish had said earlier in the day when it issued its 10-Q earnings report with the Securities and Exchange Commission: that it expected the loss of the Spanish-language programmes content to be permanent.

In a statement prior to the earnings call, Univision said

“We at Univision do not take any pleasure in Dish TV’s loss of nearly 200,000 subscribers in the second quarter,” the broadcaster said in a statement. “In fact, we are concerned Dish’s decision to turn its back on Hispanic audiences—a growing community that already accounts for nearly 20% of Dish’s subscriber base—will exacerbate such losses going forward (as Dish itself alerted its shareholders in its SEC filing). We are confident a renewed partnership that leverages our top-rated news, sports and entertainment programming will not only mitigate ongoing subscriber losses but propel Dish to greater long-term growth.”

The dispute is largely around pricing, but Ergen said on Dish’s conference call that Univision programming is available elsewhere – including a $7.99 per month direct-to-consumer offering from the programmer – which diminishes its value to the satellite company. In addition, Netflix has been increasing its Spanish-language offerings, which further lessen the value of other networks.

“Customers that really want Univision at Dish will find another way to get the product,” Ergen said, adding that he expects similar disputes in the future.

“This will not be the first skirmish,” Ergen said. “Every single provider has the same issue with programmers.”

Ergen repeated claims that Univision has lost audience, especially since it failed to renew its rights deal for the World Cup, and that it has undergone management turmoil in recent months. He continued that Dish’s decision not to pay what it said was a demand for a 75% rate increase for the Univision channels, wasn’t personal, just business.

Univision has claimed that Dish rejected an offer to extend its old deal while negotiations continued, and has said in the past that the company refused to meet with executives to hash out the matter.

"Charlie Ergen has a good perspective on the challenges facing the broader media industry," Univision said in a later statement. "At Univision, we’re in the business of developing, acquiring and delivering the very best content to serve the Hispanic community, which also happens to be a highly coveted consumer. And as good distribution partners, we price that best-in-class Spanish-language content appropriately. Our team remains in active discussions with Dish to get back to serving its large Hispanic subscriber base with the best news, sports and entertainment."

Ergen recited a litany of reasons for the decision, including the declining popularity of Univision’s telenovela programming – which Ergen said was “long in the tooth” – to the loss of several top executives, including its CEO Randy Falco, chief revenue officer Tonia O’Connor and chief content officer Isaac Lee. 

Related: Univision to Lay Off 6% of Work Force 

He added that he has not heard from Univision’s new CEO, former Media General chief Vincent Sadusky, since he took the helm in June. 

“That doesn’t sound like a relationship that they want to proceed with,” Ergen said.

Comcast chairman and CEO Brian Roberts weighed in on programming costs increases at an industry conference Tuesday, adding that programmers are searching for alternatives to the age-old practice of selling bundles of popular channels with less watched networks.

“I think you're going to see real tension around, ‘Is that sustainable? Is that a product that shrinks?’” Roberts said at the Morgan Stanley Technology, Media & Telecom conference in San Francisco. “One of the reasons we bought NBCUniversal was to be on both sides of that conversation.”

Roberts added that he had no concrete answers to the problem of rising programming costs – Comcast has averaged increases of between 7% and 10% annually for the past three-to-10 years and this year the increase is expected to be slightly higher. But he said programmers are recognizing there is a problem.

“Is the pendulum swinging?” Roberts asked. “I think there is a real awareness by many of the programmers that we have to create alternatives for consumers and not just make it a binary decision, all or nothing. That’s an ongoing conversation.”

Roberts praised Comcast Cable CEO Neil Smit for refocusing the company after it abandoned its merger with Time Warner Cable in April.

“I credit Neil Smit for one of the best leadership calls to action I have ever witnessed,” Roberts said, adding that the Cable unit CEO made improved customer service the company’s main goal. As a result, Comcast has more video customers today than it did a year ago, has reduced churn, increased on-demand usage and launched new technology like its voice remote.  Roberts said that about 5 million voice remotes have been deployed into customer homes. He added that the goal going forward is to allow customers to make every single transaction with the company over a mobile phone if they so desire.

In addition, Comcast has rolled out its X1 platform to about one-third of its footprint, and should have it available to half of its service area by the end of the year. 

Rising programing costs again are the culprit for cable rate increases, according to Evercore ISI Group media analysts David Joyce and Vijay Jayant, with the cable charges on average rising 3% to 4% in 2016 while programming costs have risen between 8% and 10% annually over the past four years.

Three of the four top cable operators have announced their 2016 rate increases – Charter Communications is the only holdout so far – with Cablevision Systems the only top operator that has not increased video rates.

According to the analysts, almost all of Comcast’s double play packages increased by $3 –to-$4 per month (2%-5%) and triple play packages rose by $1.50 per month (1%).  Limited basic video packages increased by about $1 per month while  expanded basic video decreased by $1 per month. Some of the increases took the form of installation and service fees. Retransmission consent fees forced the largest cable operator in the country to nearly double the broadcast fee from $3  to $5 per month. Comcast said its average bill will rise by 3.9% in 2016.

At Time Warner Cable, which hopes to complete its merger with Charter by the end of the first quarter, monthly charges for its Starter TV and Standard TV rose by $4 (20%) and $2 (2%), respectively. The second largest cable operator also announced new broadband pricing packages and has increased most of its equipment and service fees, in addition to raising rates for  premium channels Cinemax and Starz.

Cablevision Systems, which is expecting to complete its $17.7 billion merger with Altice in the first half of this year, said it will not incrase pricing for its base products, but is raising set-top box rental charges and DVR fees by $1  per month each for residential and commercial customers. All commercial customers will now be paying $9.99 per month for modem rental fees. Cablevision has said that the average customer bill will increase by 2.9%.

Satellite TV and telco TV operators also have announced increases, with DirecTV (now part of AT&T) announcing price increases for its video packages ranging from $1 to $9 per month, according to the analysts. Dis Network has announced increases between $2 and $8 per month for all its packages effective Jan. 14.

On the telco TV side, AT&T announced increases  of between $2 and $4 per month for  all its video packages, effective Jan.28. The analysts wrote that they haven’t seen any official announcements from Verizon’s FiOS TV but their own channel checks indicate that all premium channels saw a $2 monthly price  increase , while its Showtime Starz Entertainment Package was increased by $4/month.

Even Google Fiber isn’t immune to the costs of TV programming.

The company confirmed that it will be raising the rate on its 1-Gig/pay-TV bundle for new customers in Kansas City by $10 per month. That product mix originally started at $120 per month, and will rise to $130 per month for new customers as of March 10.

Google’s stand-alone 1-Gig service in all markets will remain at $70 per month. Pricing of its broadband/TV bundle pricing plans in Provo, Utah, will continue to start at $120 per month. Google Fiber’s TV/broadband bundle in Austin, Texas, has started at $130 per month since pricing was announced for that market in November 2014.

Word of the price change for new customers in Kansas City first showed up in this Reddit post.

"Since we kicked off signups for Google Fiber in Kansas City two years ago, we’ve offered our Gigabit + TV product to residents at $120/month," Google told DSLReports. "In that time, we've continued to invest in our Gig+TV offering, improving our programming, and offering new benefits (e.g., more TV boxes per home, latest devices)."

Kansas City-- Finding a small cable operator complaining about high programming costs at the Independent Show is easier than finding a barbeque joint in this city.

But a group of analysts tried to persuade the cable faithful here that programmers shouldn’t be the focus of their fear and ire…Silicon Valley should be. 

The panel, “Wall Street Update for Main Street MSOs,” was featured at The Independent Show, the annual confab for small and mid-sized cable operators hosted by the American Cable Association and the National Cable Television Cooperative

Indeed, far from carping about increased programming costs, cable operators should feel good about their business. New digital entrants destroyed the newspaper, music and Yellow Pages business, but the cable industry has largely avoided the mass migration of subscribers and revenue to new digital entrants. 

“This is the only industry to date that has been able to fight the onslaught of digital platforms, and so far no leakage”  said Laura Martin (pictured), a managing director at Needham & Co. -- a testament to the collaborative relationship between cable operators and programmers. "If that fractures, said Martin, "seventy percent of gross revenue will disappear.”

Overall viewing of TV content on more devices in the home is up, Martin said, which should provide more cover on price increases. In round numbers, cable’s $75 billion of subscription revenue, in addition to $75 billion in advertising revenue, is up roughly 20% over the past five years.  Moreover, “all those consumers that are whining to you that they can’t possibly pay more money are paying another $3 billion to Netflix and another $1 billion in subscription fees.” 

“You’ve got a better mousetrap – it’s just a question of execution,” said Naveen Nataraj, a senior managing director at Evercore Partners. 

Martin suggested the operators in the room think more holistically about their business. True, video margins are getting squeezed, compared to broadband margins, but video content, in not so many years, will be moving to toward a more interactive, real-time experience. Cable operators have a strategic advantage with the double bundle – and far better discovery than online sites such as YouTube.

“You should think of your video and broadband product as integrated” because of interactive possibilities around the corner…”only you can do those fast speeds two way.”  “Keep the bundle… the bigger the bundle the better,” Martin said.

“These Silicon Valley companies are much more threatening enemies to you than your content companies are,” said Martin. Google, for example, has 50,000 employees and $55 billion in revenue last year with $20 billion in free cash flow. “They lose money on Google Fiber and they don’t care.”  Their intent is to disrupt and they have “plenty of money to play with” 

All disruption starts at the low end where there’s no economics and in time it moves up into the profit pool, Martin said. Google Fiber is “losing a fortune”  trying to get cable to invest in higher speeds.  “They want free access to fast speeds so they can innovate and deliver things over your pipes for free… they’re coming after you and they have big teeth…”

Kansas City, Mo. -- A growing number of small and independent cable operators are preparing to get rid of the very product that once drew customers to their business: TV programming.

With the wholesale price of programming increasing at a rate far higher than the retail cost, many operators attending The Independent Show here are generally ready to get out of the programming business and instead allow customers to pick and choose programming services with an IP, or over-the-top system.

At a panel titled “IP is the Future – Are you On Board?” at the annual convention of the American Cable Association and the National Cable Television Cooperative, operators focused on an option of making broadband the core product and allowing customers to deal directly with programmers.  Steve Weed, CEO of Wave Division Holdings, said smaller cable operators are focused on building -- and maintaining --  a gateway to the home that allows over the top players such as Netflix to be delivered to cable customers. Wave Broadband currently uses the Tivo platform, which features Netflix.

For its part, Cable ONE said it has inked a deal that will enable its customers to access Netflix directly through TiVo-powered HD-DVRs that it leases to subscribers.

“We don’t make any money on video,” said Weed, noting the 14% of gross margin on subscription video business, essentially passing along content to customers at cost. “We have a big incentive to get out of that.”

With the current wave of consolidation evident in several announced deals -- Comcast/Time Warner Cable; AT&T/DirecTV: 21st Century's offer to Time Warner -- panelists agreed that big mergers will accelerate the likelihood that basic-cable packages could go over-the-top.

“You’ve got this huge force of traditional media players,” said Jimmy Schaeffler, chairman of the Carmel  Group.  “They are getting more and more control and squeezing your margins harder and harder. They’re making it tougher and tougher to hang on to that video that you have…..”

Because programming rate increases, said Weed, are the No.1 complaint from customers, smaller cable operators would do better getting rid of their traditional TV video product and instead focusing on providing a gateway to the home that connects all the services – phone service, home automation, security – and helps “manage the complexity” for customers.

Regardless, broadband is expected to play an increasingly larger role as a product offering.  Schaeffler predicted a big part of small ops’ future is the Internet of things.  He reminded the audience that Mediacom Communications is working with John Deere to investigate the extension of high-speed broadband in rural Iowa to provide connectivity for automated farm machinery. Mediacom wants to improve agricultural efficiency by connecting commercial farming operations (and John Deere equipment) with wireless broadband services. 

“The Internet of things will proliferate and many of you will be in the middle of it rural America” said Schaeffler.  Younger users will continue their craving for more broadband in time, he said. “You have a pipe they will scream for, “ he said.